Why you suck at Jungle

Or how to stop my attempts to murder Junglers with my mind

We play a lot of games that are decided by the 10 minute mark.  Its not entirely apparent that we have lost, but the cancer has set it, will soon metastasize and we will be on our way to the 20 to 30 minute surrender depending upon how stubborn I am.

This isn't always the jungles fault, but its the jungle who has to attempt to fix this.  All too often the enemy jungle is doing their job while our jungle takes an extended forest stroll.  As these events have demonstrated your collective immunity to experience, I have decided to bless you with a guide on how to jungle.

First the goal of the jungle: to help "win" lanes.  Lanes have direct feedback.  The more gold and experience you earn there, the more advantageous your position in lane becomes, the more this snowballs in the lane and then throughout the entire game.  Unless you are heavily counter jungling you inherently do not have this feedback and it makes the jungle position significantly weaker when played in a non-interactive manner.

This is why its important to gank at level 4 at the latest.  If you can force a lane to go back and heal 2-3 times or  to play more conservatively due to your presence, even if they didn't die, this gives your lane a significant advantage.  They will be in a better position, and as this advantage increases they should  soon be able to kill their opponent without your help. If you sit passively in the jungle until 6 significant damage has already been done and by the time you try to right the ship it is often far far too late.  There is no such thing as a good Jungle who starts ganking at 6.  If you think you need to wait till level 6 to interact with the lanes you are doing something spectacularly wrong.

This feedback is also why Primum non nocere has to be the primary rule of the jungle.  Don't give mid both buffs because you try to force something.  Don't expect a lane incredibly low on life/mana to help you out.  Don't have your only interaction with a lane be to push it back off a tower:  you are forcing a lane with a disadvantage to lose one of the only advantages they have in that position.  Mistakes will naturally happen but if you can try to correct them.

As a Jungle you will have to make Sophie's Choice.  Not all your retard children will survive the laning phase intact, you just need some of them to.  Some lanes are beyond help and it is perfectly alright to abandon them to tower hugging - if you are actively making a difference in other lanes.  When it becomes apparent that you are only helping a single floundering lane it gives an incredible advantage to an enemy team who notices this.  Part of this is looking for the right opportunities to gank and not forcing bad ones.  Bottom lane needs help, but is pushed?  Make your presence felt in a lane that is presenting a better opportunity and try to get back around.

While there are 4 items to choose from as a Jungle there is a single correct choice.  This is the Stalker's Blade.  While forcing an enemy out of lane is helpful you are really there to get your lanemate a kill.  The Stalker's Blade gives you another tool to do so while none of the other jungling items do.  This is also why jungles with multiple stuns/slows are stronger.

Also notice what was said above?  Much like support, the goal of the jungle isn't to rack up a kill count.  If you can, let the lane take the kill.  This isn't glorious and puts you in a weaker position but it puts the lane with direct feedback in the stronger one.

Another common mistake are attempted jungle ganks that come from the direction of your creep wave.  These do not surprise anyone and rarely accomplish anything.  Either flank the lane or attack them from the rear.  While coming in for a gank it is better not to dally as well.  Communicate your intent with pings and enter the lane with initiative.  The longer you wait for the perfect gank the longer you give your opponents a chance to notice you with their wards.

Finally, the dragon.  While the jungle should be attempting to secure the dragon it should be apparent by now that making this your only goal is a flawed strategy.  The dragon is also why mid and bottom are more important lanes then top.  Top is expected to be more independent, there is a reason they take teleport after all.  The best way to take a dragon is through this feedback effect:  kill/force mid back, then the Jungler and Mid can gank bottom.  Once both lanes are disrupted take the dragon.

Playing Ret

56 / 56 (50+6) Warcaster(s) : 1/1 Warjack(s) : 3 Battle Engines : 0 Solos : 2 Units : 2

Dawnlord Vyros - WJ: +6
- Hyperion - PC: 18

Dawnguard Sentinels - Leader & 9 Grunts: 9
- Sentinel Officer & Standard - PC: 0
- Daemon - PC: 9
Dawnguard Sentinels - Leader & 9 Grunts: 9
- Sentinel Officer & Standard - PC: 2
- Daemon - PC: 9

THEME: Legions of the Dawn - Tier 2


I actually knocked out a game with the above list and rather enjoyed it. 22 Vengeance Weaponmasters is not something I get to play around with in Skorne. Imperitus should be taking the place of the Hyperion but he is missing pieces.


What really surprised me was how threatening it can be. Hyperion is 14" up the table the first turn and both Daemons can run and then pronto. I thought I would be using the pronto more to yo-yo but it is an incredible threat extender on the Daemons gun, which turned out to be super effective.


Arcanists really need to fit in the the list somewhere but I'm just not sure where. I can drop one, or both units to min but that is lame with vengeance units. The only saving grace there is I could drop both units to min, add two arcanists and then add 2 Souless to each unit. The Soulless still trigger Vengeance and it gives the army a weird anti-magic trick.

ADD II: The ADDening

So progress on various fronts, first some generalities then some specifics.  The more I play SR2015 the more important it is to make good use out of the objectives.  So far the Artillery, the Free charge and the Upkeep objectives seem to be what people build lists around.  If you aren't going to play one of those you play the objective that is difficult to destroy at range.  I'm curious if anyone is seeing anything else.

With that in mind I've thought of a few things I would like to try in Skorne.  Fist with artillery seems like something to experiment with.  I think Fist will also like the beast pacts for a bunch of reasons:  an AD screen, they are still infantry for all his synergies(moving through, press forward, etc) and Def Ward.

It would also be nice to find homes for Zaardesh and the Shamblers.  They both belong somewhere and it has to be somewhere stronger then pHexy for the Shamblers.  I'm curious if you can squeeze them into a Fatty list.  I'm also not sure about Zaardesh.  I've been curious if two brutes with him in Mord may work out as the first wave.  They should be really difficult to deal with under the feat.

I've also played a little Khador, both games with the OW.  One I essentially won at the top of 2, the other I was outshot.  This is the list I played in both games:

Khador - Old Witch modern

53 / 53 (50+3) Warcaster(s) : 1/1 Warjack(s) : 2 Battle Engines : 0 Solos : 4 Units : 3

The Old Witch of Khador - WJ: +3
- Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker
- Conquest - PC: 19

Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist - PC: 2
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor - PC: 2
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 2

Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator - PC: 1

Ragman - PC: 2

Great Bears of Gallowswood - Volkov, Kolsk, Yarovich: 5

Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters - Cylena & 9 Grunts: 10
- Koldun Kapitan Valachev - Valachev 2
Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 4
- Winter Guard Officer & Standard - Winter Guard Officer & Standard 2

I think it needs a little tweaking.  It had too many support choices and not enough bodies.   There is nothing in it to discourage a Jam and that seems to really be a thing.  The Conquest was interesting but if there is a properly positioned forest people can still see through it to be shot, even if it too can see through the forest.  I should probably field Mechanics with it too.  I think this would be an improvement:

Khador - Old Witch Modern 2

53 / 53 (50+3) Warcaster(s) : 1/1 Warjack(s) : 2 Battle Engines : 0 Solos : 4 Units : 4

The Old Witch of Khador - WJ: +3
- Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker
- Behemoth - PC: 13

Koldun Lord - PC: 2
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 2
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution - PC: 3
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist - PC: 2

Great Bears of Gallowswood - Volkov, Kolsk, Yarovich: 5
Widowmakers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 9 Grunts: 6
- Winter Guard Officer & Standard - Winter Guard Officer & Standard 2
Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters - Cylena & 9 Grunts: 10
- Koldun Kapitan Valachev - Valachev 2

It mostly drops the Conquest down to a Behemoth to open up options.  The Widowmakers are an incredible unit that should help out with the jamming problem.  I found myself constantly short on focus so the Koldun Lord should help out there.  Eiryss was actually in the top list until I realized I didn't bring her with me.  The fleshed out Widowmakers and Winterguard should be the extra beef I need too.

At least it brings two jacks but its really just a single jack list.  

On the Ret front, I've picked up the models I need to play the various tier lists.  I've just need to get around to assembly, which will certainly happen any day now.

Fatty Jam Tier

Lately I've been seeing a lot of jam lists locally that try to trap their opponents right outside their deployment zone.  I've been curious what in Skorne could replicate that effect or potentially counter it and the result is below.  It's heavily Skorne good stuff, but it all ties together:

55 / 55 (50+5) Warlock(s) : 1/1 Warbeast(s) : 3 Battle Engines : 0 Solos : 4 Units : 4

Dominar Rasheth - WB: +5
- Titan Gladiator - PC: 7
- Bronzeback Titan - PC: 9
- Bronzeback Titan - PC: 9

Paingiver Task Master - PC: 2
Paingiver Task Master - PC: 2
Agonizer - PC: 2
Agonizer - PC: 2

Gatorman Posse - Leader & 4 Grunts: 9
Gatorman Posse - Leader & 4 Grunts: 9
Paingiver Beast Handlers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 2
Farrow Bone Grinders - Leader & 3 Grunts: 2

THEME: Chain Gang - Tier 4

So my agonizers start with 3 fury, each Gatorman Posse gets +2SPD the first turn and I gain an additional 2" deployment, which I've found to be fairly huge for Skorne.  This means if I go first the Gators can be 23" up the field and if I go second they can charge living enemy models 26" up the field.

Initially I had a Sentry instead of one of the BBs but the Gators should provide a fairly effective screen for the BBs.  The BBs can clear zones and threaten a counter charge to stop a single model contesting.

The farrow bone grinders are completely extra points.  The extra range for spell casting may very well be worthwhile or the animus when my gladiator dies.

Knowing Skorne I wouldn't be surprised if the very same list(+/- 3ish points) has already been played and talked about.

New Colossals!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc6DeP47JnI

My current thoughts on these things matches up a lot with a post from the big boards:

"I'm considering this a no win situation for me. I already own two Conquests. I bought them (one very much discounted) and had them commission painted which is not cheap. I'm unhappy with its rules so I don't use it often. 

Now comes the Victor. It practically looks like the same model but has different rules. It creates rough terrain, drops defense, and causes fire. It has longer range but is innacurate.

So outcome 1 is that the rules aren't very good and I don't buy it in which case it is wasted slot in the book. Outcome 2 is that it is better than Conquest and makes it obsolete. Neither of these makes me happy.

I personally would have been much happier with a rules re-write for Conquest rather than a new model on the same chassis."

I love Colossals but they are an expensive purchase for PP to iteratively get right.

ADC Itemization: The Background

Cut to the chase: this is about League of Legends, not Warmachine.  So read at your own risk. 

I think there are pretty much two ways to build an ADC; the standard build that begins with Infinity Edge and the bust-heavy path that starts with Trinity Force.   If you don't follow one of these paths, you are playing a sub-optimal (read: bad) build and aren't going to perform well as an ADC.

But before I can present the builds, I want to talk about the role of the ADC in LoL.  Why should teams include an ADC? What characteristics make a good adc?


1) Characters with high and sustained attack damage are required to push towers, claim dragons, and kill Baron.

Claiming these objectives can takes many seconds and mages/assasins typically have low dps over long time intervals.  Tanks/Bruisers generally have better damage output in these scenarios, but because they generally build items to increase their survivability and rely on abilities for damage they also fall short.  Teams that include an ADC style character can clear objectives more quickly, which is one path to victory.

2) Some teams include characters that are incredibly tanky.

I'm talking that monstrous Cho-Gath, the full build Nautilus, Maokai the never dying tree, etc.  These champions can be more or less invulnerable if you don't have a team member with really high DPS and Armour Pen to kill them.  Other traditional sources of damage, such as mages/assassins, can make a big dent in these guys but generally can't finish the job.  Many tanks have %damage that make them very effective at fighting similarly farmed bruisers. 

The job of the ADC is to crush tanks when they become a problem. Sustained damage over time

3) After winning a team fight, whoever is left gets to try and claim objectives.

The ADC can survive fights because their superior range allows them to fight around the edge.  ADCs shoot into fights; they don't participate in them.  Good ADC play involves positioning so you never get attacked. A victory condition at the end of the game is winning a fight with a living ADC who can push for the W.

For these reasons, I think you should build an ADC solely to maximize damage output.  There is more or less one way to do this, independent of the character chosen.  Superior itemization leads to maximized DPS.  If you build around a particular character's passives/abilities, or include early surivability items, you won't be able to fill the ADC role when you get to the late game. 

In my next post, I'll talk about build paths that maximize DPS and compare them to other builds.

Faction ADD

I've been playing Skorne since moving to CA and I feel the faction ADD coming on hard.  I would like to try to polish a gem in the rough and I'm not sure I see any casters like that in Skorne.

It feels like I have 3 and a half options:

1. Khador
Greylord Cav have never been assembled and I've only played one or two games with 3Butch.  I also purchased 2 units of TAC to use in Khador but never got around to assembling them either.  Old Witch has been calling me lately too with SR2015.

Downsides?  New jack isn't out yet and wont be this year.

2. CoC
I have the BEs coming something this month, a ton of lights to assemble for Syntherion and a second unit of Reciprocators.  This faction still feels Wild West-y in that not many people play it and there has to be some room for discovery here.

Downsides?  The slowest, grindyiest faction in the game.

3. Ret
Tons of things I haven't played here too.  New caster, new junior, new unit of infantry and UA, new awesome jack and a Colossal.  I also like some of the modern tier lists like pVyross with the double Daemon, force wall and the Rahn tier list with the Colossal.

Also Ret is a fast faction which isn't something I'm really used to.  May be worth it for that alone.

Downsides?  Playing Ret.  I know Andy loves them.

4.  Find something to play in Skorne
eZ likely should be played more.  Also I should likely play pHexy more when he arrives.

Thoughts?